CDW Sits in Ash Heap and Scrapes Her Boils – She Feels So Bad About Everything She Has Written!
by Rechelle ~ February 10th, 2010. Filed under: Life.
NOT!!!
In truth, I feel pretty darn good.
It’s nice to be yourself on your own blog.
Really nice!
REALLY FREAKING NICE!
Welcome to the real Rechelle.
It’s nice to meet you real Rechelle.
Thank you, It’s nice to meet me too!
I am having a great time meeting me!
I never knew I was such a pain in the ass!
Or so brave!
I used to be terrified of pissing off the uptight readers of this blog.
But now I don’t even care!
I used to live in quaking fear of the comments on this blog. I used to go weeks without reading them. I would walk around with my stomach in a knot all the time because of the unread comments on this site. I also couldn’t open emails that came from this site. I didn’t want to get blasted again by another reader telling me what an awful person I was for speaking my mind or for telling the truth about my life, or for daring to criticize certain mainstays of the religious right.
I don’t understand how giving up god has made me a stronger person as it seems counter intuitive. I mean having a god in your brain all the time should make a person more courageous should it not? The idea of an omnipotent deity that has your back ought to embolden even the mousiest of individuals. And yet the god in my head made me meek and fearful. The god in my head made me second guess myself all the time. I had to evaluate everything I did in the light of christianity. How did it measure up to Jesus or the bible or being a humble servant to all humankind? The god in my head made me think that offending the uptight readers of my blog was the worst sin I could commit…. except for maybe murdering my husband, which I also considered a few times this past year.
I doubt that very many people in my small town read my blog, but I feel like every time I step into the grocery store or walk into the gym to watch one of my son’s games a neon sign above my head suddenly clicks on and starts flashing ATHEIST! ATHEIST! This has resulted in a lot of anxiety, but I am sure it will pass. Another story will break. Someone will get divorced or get drunk or get into a fight at the country club (or all three at the same time) and the doctor’s wife turned atheist will become old news.
I have received some kindly notes, and a few emails from local folks. Most of these letters are concerned. They all promise to pray for me. One letter stands out. The writer did not think that my reasons for becoming an atheist were sound. According to this person, I’m was not really smart enough to be an atheist. So I guess that means that my atheism is some kind of a miracle?
Another friend called and wants me to undergo a thorough psychiatric evaluation and then said that she wished that she could sit around and blog all day too. I couldn’t decide which of these statements pissed me off more. Her thinking I am completely nuts just because I don’t believe in god anymore or her accusation that all I do is blog all day. But I couldn’t be bothered with thinking about it too long. I had to get back to my blog!
As for the rest of the community, I can kind of tell who is aware of my new ‘outlook’ on life by the size of their eyeballs when they look my way.
Jack and Drew will demonstrate.
If their eyes are as big as grapefruits when they look at me – they have been reading the blog.
If their eyes are only as big as oranges, they have heard about the recent posts from someone else.
If their eyes are only as big as two Chilean apricots, then they have heard about the recent posts, from someone who heard about the recent posts from someone who may or may not have actually read the blog.
There are also people who refuse to look at me at all. As if I could cast a spell on them and make their bladder seize up or cause their cat to puke up a dead vole underneath the TV set.
But I CAN’T.
Because I converted to atheism.
Not satanism.
There are also lots of people who must either secretly agree, don’t give a rat’s ass or live a deeply satisfying life away from the roiling gossip of a small town.
These would be my favorite people in the world right now.
With the exception of the two young men who ran the audio visuals in this post.
February 10th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Except that I am a man and much older than you and i don’t live in a scary village, we have so much in common, namely how you used to be and how you are now. Wonderful is it not? My memory is clearly divided into dark times and light times, the light times being the shortest but representing the time I shook free of all that crap. I admire you tremendously. Oh, it isn’t easy, and at times lonely, but you won’t ever experience that darkness of the spirit again. (mind if you prefer.) Keep going as you are., You have walked thru the Valley of Death and have come out the other side triumphant. Not many people do this in life. They remain unthinking sheep. Yes, I know I keep using religious imagery. Irony anyone?
February 10th, 2010 at 4:50 pm
Fantastic post again, Rechelle – the grapefruit/orange scenario is very clever, funny and that alone is already worth the reading – well said.
Keep it coming !
February 10th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
Ah, small towns.
Gotta love ‘em (can’t shoot ‘em).
February 10th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
Forget your suffering, think of all the sacrifices that this produce just made…
February 10th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Funny post ! Great kids ! Where do you find the Chilean Apricots ??
Sounds good…..
February 10th, 2010 at 7:00 pm
Glad you’re feeling good about yourself, especially no longer being tied up in knots worrying about what other people think.
On another note, Colin’s post is a delight as well. Ironically, a newly converted Christian (or any other “ist” or “ism” or whatever) feels the same way – taken out of context, it wouldn’t be possible to tell if the writer was atheist, buddhist, muslim, converted to protestantism or antidisestablishmentarianism. In the end, we all believe we’ve thrown off the shackles and come out of the dark and into the light once we have formulated our own “truth.”
Not that’s there’s anything wrong with that. Just sayin’.
February 10th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Even if you were the churchiest church lady around someone would not be happy with the casserole you brought to the pot luck. Most people really need to take a deep breath and just get over 95% of the stuff they are up set about – all of us would be happier as a result.
February 10th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
I have great admiration for you. I know in your part of the country your decision is very brave. It is easy to question in a liberal town, it is not easy to be an atheist in your neighborhood.
As always the phrase “one billion people in China don’t even know or care” comes to mind. It’s hard to keep perspective.
The two boys look so cute. Great post!
February 10th, 2010 at 8:02 pm
Jill, I remember well the joyous feeling of becoming a Christian. Followed very shortly thereafter by nonstop feelings of guilt…guilt over not being perfect, guilt over not sharing my faith enough, guilt over not being a godly enough wife and mother…oh it just went on and on. Repentance and prayer for forgiveness didn’t solve that because immediately I’d be less than perfect again and so the cycle never ended. There was also constant niggling doubt when I could see things in the Bible that conflicted with my own certainties of how people should be treated or with my knowledge of science. Oh, and never forget the worry that maybe I wasn’t a real Christian, that I hadn’t given my whole heart to Christ, and I was going to hell anyway. So the joyous feelings of being a Christian, being in a community of like-minded people, were very much dampened by the negative feelings that went with it. Now Christians will doubtless tell me that my understanding was wrong, that I wasn’t experiencing the fullness of the Christian life, and so on. Yeah, probably so. Still that was my experience and in contrast to it is my experience as an atheist. As an atheist, I can have strong ethical beliefs that are in contrast with the bible and there aren’t any doubts or guilt associated with those beliefs. I can read science with an open mind and think how marvelous it all is without having to go through contortions to make it fit with what the bible says. I can make mistakes many times a day and realize I’m a human being like all others who all make mistakes and I don’t have to ask god for forgiveness a hundred times a day. I can have love for all my fellow humans and animals without sorting them into saved/unsaved or into beings with a soul/beings without a soul. I can think my own thoughts without feeling that someone is listening in. I can eat a meal that I cooked and be thankful to my husband for providing for our family and to myself for being a pretty decent cook and to farmers who grow the food and I don’t have to pretend that god is the one who really should be thanked. There are lots and lots of upsides to being an atheist. And so far, quite a few years into it, I haven’t found a downside other than the scorn heaped on me by Christians.
February 10th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
I’m not sure yet whether I’ve converted to atheism or agnosticism, but I’m with ya sista – we ain’t satanists!
I believe that Jesus existed in a historical context, was probably an enlightened person much like Buddha or the Dalai Lama.
But the whole died on the cross to absolve my sins kind of requires a suspension of belief (like watching Avatar) that I guess I don’t have. That’s like Catholics who believe it’s OK to do bad things as long as you go to confession – then you’re off the hook till next week.
As Ghandi once said “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians, they aren’t very Christ-like”.
February 10th, 2010 at 8:47 pm
The small town minds will move on. Just like seeing a train wreck, out of sight is out of mind. Those boys of yours have the cutest dimples!
February 10th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Wow someone wants you to submit to a psych eval because they don’t like your lack of relgion, talk about condescending. But I guess it just shows how people with religion have problems with critical thinking, lack understanding. and view “others” with such animosity. All the christian love showing through, boggles the mind.
February 10th, 2010 at 8:58 pm
Is it really God you don,t like, or could it be some of his followers. Either way, I still like you and your blog
February 10th, 2010 at 9:03 pm
don’t
February 10th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
It’s good to see your boys again. i love how willing they are to goof off for the camera. You’ve done good with them, seems like.
What’s been bugging me in the comments is the number of people wondering what your husband and sister think of “this”. I find I’m shaking my fist at those commenters. Who cares! Old think! Stone age! Besides, I suspect family knew this version of you already.
The other day someone said their father lived by this rule: Do the best you can as often as you can. So that’s my latest rule. So far, so good.
February 10th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
No one can dislike, like, love or hate God cos no one knows God or even if there is one. Although I feel Rechelle and I are bound by common experience, I am NOT an atheist, nor am I theist. My conscience does not allow either position of certainty. I can live without the answers very well thank you and I live according my own conscience, no one else’s. That is hard at times, not bowing under the pressure of the mob but I already know I cannot live by the conscience of others. That nearly killed me and I came very close to losing my mind. Thank fully I just lost my religion. Cue the music…..
February 10th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
i guess i would fall in the catagory of
1. don’t give a rat’s ass
or
2. live a deeply satisfying life away
from the roiling gossip of a small town.
but i have lived in a small town before and understand
or know about that roiling gossip! we all do it tho!
i like you for you.
and i love your two models! those dimples just
melt my heart! they are SO cute! :)
February 10th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
I’m very curious as to what, if anything, you are saying to your kids. They seemed to know the story behind what they were demonstrating. This is something I struggle with personally, so I’m very interested in your story.
February 10th, 2010 at 9:39 pm
Man alive! You must have seriously been in the wrong blog community to have that much anxiety about comments and your readers. Hopefully you will find a new, supportive community.
February 10th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
I don’t know how good a friend that was that told you you should have a psychiatric evaluation but if it was a good friend, I could understand why they might think this. If I had a friend IRL that suddenly made an about face on something important or seemed to be having issues, I would probably question if something was wrong too. In fact, when I was having anxiety issues my BFF told me I needed to go to the doctor and finally I listened and got help. Not that I’m saying you need any kind of help because it’s not the same thing I was going through but sometimes people are not saying things to be mean they are just trying to help.
February 10th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
The boys with the bug eyes was kinda fun!
Small town living … is as it was … kind of hard to get “a jury of your peers” who don’t know you. And despite the raging gossip … they probably do still care about you … other than a select few that you didn’t care for to begin with.
Don’t let the “show cat” freeze. :-)
February 10th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
Ahh, I see you have minions now :D
February 10th, 2010 at 10:00 pm
I don’t think I ever read about anyone with a mental disorder suddenly “coming down” with a case of atheism. Sadly you can find numerous accounts of people with mental illness “finding” religion, sadly your friend had it backward.
February 10th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
How big is a rat’s ass anyway? I mean compared to citrus fruit?
It must feel nice to BE ABLE TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT on YOUR OWN BLOG. :)
February 10th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
Love the post! Your kids are so beautiful!
February 10th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
You’re boys are so precious! I grew up in small town ND, left, and never looked back. Thanks to a high affinity for science, I was a closet atheist in my teen years, even while going through confirmation and all that…stuff. It takes alot to be open about your true self in a community like yours, so kudos to you. I will be one of your many new loyals readers defending your ‘honor’ against all these wacky xian trolls! XD
February 10th, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Please tell us how your showcats are dealing with this turmoil. Are the other cats in the neighborhood averting their eyes?
I love that stained glass window in the background. And your adorable models.
February 10th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
My wife is a Dr. and Im an atheist in a small town. I feel where you’re coming from. :) Keep up the great posts!
February 10th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
Unfortunately for me, I am not a long-time reader of your blog, having only stumbled upon it yesterday. As far back as I can remember, I was never religious – I do remember early feelings of anxiety, centered on how and why my feelings were so different compared to everyone else I knew. (I was born on Christmas, so maybe the fact that religion trumped my birthday everytime made me a little pissed.) But back to the point of this comment — I rarely discuss my religious views with anyone since so few people understand, and the rest of them only want to fix me. Isn’t it funny, the little social dance you do as you get to know someone, looking for indicators of similar beliefs so you can put your guard down. Well, that’s been me anyway….now, you make me think about becoming braver and more vocal about my views….not in an evangelical way (!), but simply in being willing to share that part of myself when it’s appropriate. As Edward Cullen said – ‘since I’m going to hell anyway.’
February 10th, 2010 at 10:49 pm
I can understand the feeling of not measuring up and the guilt trips. I just don’t understand why you think those came from God or Jesus. What I’ve been taught is that you just do your best and then the Savior is there to make up the difference in those areas where we may fall short. I hope you don’t think I’m judging you – but I think maybe some of your anger is misplaced – I don’t think it should be with God but the people in your community (blog or home) that have judged you and been petty and closed minded.
February 10th, 2010 at 10:52 pm
That was awesome, a great morning laugh.
February 10th, 2010 at 10:56 pm
I think a lot of people are just interested in how Rechelle’s family is reacting to her change in beliefs and are wondering how she is dealing with it. This probably comes from several different perspectives. Some are hoping that she has a support system to help her get through what has obviously been a stressful time in her life. Some are wanting to make the same announcement in their lives and are wondering how Rechelle’s family reacted and how she dealt with their reactions. Some are wondering how all of it is affecting her sons, how people are treating them, how she explained her change of mind to them, etc. I doubt many people asking about her family’s reaction are indicating that she’s incapable of making such a decision on her own. People are just curious. As long as she’s giving us this much insight into her life, people are naturally going to want to see more.
February 10th, 2010 at 10:56 pm
Viki, the difference is this friend was basing her advice solely on Rechelle’s lack of belief, which isn’t a mental condition.
Had the friend suggested talking to a therapist when Rechelle was having anxiety over the people leaving mean comments on the blog, then I might think she was being helpful.
However, to tell someone that they need a psych eval just because they have done some critical thinking is completely ridiculous and mean-spirited.
February 10th, 2010 at 11:05 pm
Okay… I just did some googling of PW and revenue and I found one estimate that if she were selling all of her ad space, the site would be generating up to 3 mill in revenue. Minus the share going to Federated Media and minus the ad space that did not sell, one guessimate is that PW is personally making 800K to 1 million. Out of that, she pays for lots of expenses – giveaways, employees, web designers, etc. Not bad!
February 10th, 2010 at 11:06 pm
Mavis’ “How big is a rat’s ass anyway? I mean compared to citrus fruit?
It must feel nice to BE ABLE TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT on YOUR OWN BLOG. :)” gets my vote for Comment of the Week !!!!!
I’m still chuckling
February 10th, 2010 at 11:12 pm
hmmm, being castigated by the ruling religious class for speaking your mind.
you remind me of someone….
February 10th, 2010 at 11:12 pm
There’s a definite power that comes from being one’s authentic self.
Loved this line of yours…
“According to this person, I’m was not really smart enough to be an atheist. So I guess that means that my atheism is some kind of a miracle?”
February 10th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
Your visualization helpers are adorable and very competent. Nicely done.
February 10th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Gracious- Your boys are adorable! <3
February 10th, 2010 at 11:36 pm
Good Morning-
I have never commented on a blog before today. I enjoy your blog and look forward to reading your sarcastic wit each and everyday. I have no opinion about your resent religious findings as I have no religious background. You sound happy and your adorable boy’s have their mother’s sense of humor. What could be better than that? Thanks for making me laugh and think.
February 10th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
To Martha in Kansas: The quote to which your referred might have originated from John Wesley, Christian theologian and founder of Methodism.
“Do all the good you can,
By all the means you can,
In all the ways you can,
In all the places you can,
At all the times you can,
To all the people you can,
As long as ever you can.”
February 10th, 2010 at 11:51 pm
Just another random passer-by who wanted to point out that, well, You’re not alone, you’re not the only one who’s gone through this, and it does get easier (and better) as you go. ::shrugs:: It sounds like you’re doing fine, but a little support never hurt.
February 11th, 2010 at 12:00 am
You’ve prompted me to write a little blip about my own thoughts regarding religion… it’s way too long to post here. and it isn’t a very complete entry but it hits the basics. To summarize – we should question everything we are told to do/believe and think it through for ourselves.
http://ohsugar.blogspot.com/2010_02_07_archive.html#5845193106094910557
February 11th, 2010 at 12:18 am
Haven’t visited your blog for quite some time – life gets hectic sometimes – so have been getting caught up on your posts. Today’s post bought back memories of when my mother left the Church of England and was baptized a Mormon. Long time friends would cross the street when they saw her coming, would not let her serve them at the department store where she worked….could go on and on. Perhaps the most hurtful was from my Grandfather, he said that he would prefer my Mother to be a prostitute than a Mormon. Yet, when people needed help – whether it was a meal, laundry being done, babysitting, driving someone to the doctor’s, etc, etc, – my Mother was the first one there to lend a helping hand, even though sometimes it was rejected. “By their fruits ye shall know them.” She raised me to judge people by their deeds, by their kindness to others – not by their religious standing, or lack of it. Sorry for such a long comment
February 11th, 2010 at 12:30 am
Pssht. “Not smart enough to be an atheist.” You are clearly a very intelligent woman, so nuts to that. Though you’ll probably seek some re-education (I know I did)… if you find time for reading, you might go for Misquoting Jesus (Ehrman) and The Ancestor’s Tale (Dawkins). Add “A People’s History of the United States” (Howard Zinn) for good measure, though take that one with a grain of salt.
As if one actually needed to be super-intelligent to see through the transparent lies of theism. You don’t need to be smart, you just need what smarts you have to be uncluttered by emotional scaffolding designed to prevent you from thinking too far in a certain direction. And brave enough to accept not knowing the answers, over being “certain” about explanations that don’t hold up under scrutiny.
Keep up the writing, I’m loving it!
February 11th, 2010 at 12:43 am
I knew when I saw the Out in the Cold post sit there for a long time, we were in for something big! Lovin’ all the discussion…
“The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are”
Joseph Campbell
February 11th, 2010 at 12:52 am
I’ve just recently woken up to the trap of religion after being raised Catholic my whole life. After lots of searching, and lots of moments where I felt despair at the deceptions I’ve believed in, I came to a sort of peace about it. Ultimately, religion, like political parties, are belief systems which ask you to become part of “group-think” and individual thoughts or questions are not very welcome if they do not tow the line of the agenda of the religion or political party. You are asked to give YOUR personal power to someone else, someone outside yourself and by doing this, other people can CONTROL you. These belief systems seek to limit our seeking the absolute truth in all things. Their purpose is to shape your thoughts with their beliefs. When you cannot question, you cannot find the truth. It’s all about power and control–theirs over you.
I never read the Bible until I was an adult, despite the fact that I was raised a Catholic, went to private Catholic schools and attended mass every Sunday and all Holy Days. After reading the Bible, I thought about it for months. There’s so much inside the Bible that doesn’t make sense, mostly I had a hard time believing that the Catholic faith was based on the Bible when it appeared the Catholic church changed the ten commandments (among other things). Only one part of the Bible stuck with me, rang true to me, and that was when we’re told that the kingdom of God is inside us. That’s the key to knowledge that those in power do not want us to know. We do not need to look anywhere but inside for answers and we will receive them. God isn’t about collecting money or gathering people in churches to tell us we’re doomed to hell for our transgressions. We do not need priets to sit in dark stalls forgiving our sins for us.
You can find the truth by being open to the truth. Most people will cling to their cult religions just because it’s what they’ve been doing forever. They are not able to admit they’ve been conned and controlled by people they’ve trusted. I know how difficult it is, because I’ve been there, but once I decided that I would not crumble and die just because I was holding onto false belief systems, I found the peace in truth I was looking for. I felt bad about everything, guilty about everything, and now that is gone. You could never convince me that organized religion is anything other than a trap to convince us that we are less than we are, to limit us, to stifle our knowledge of how truly powerful we are if only we dare to challenge and break free from those who seek to keep the truth from us.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:07 am
Hey there–I’ve followed your blog for over a year now and I have been watching your new revelations with great interest. Although I am not a Unitarian Universalist, I work for some. Maybe you wanna check them out. They ascribe to ‘no creed’ but basic principles like the inherent dignity of life, therefore embracing athiests, Christians, Jews, Buddists and whatever flavor or combination thereof makes sense to you. Visit http://www.clfuu.org, which is a ‘virtual church’ and has lots of free resources if you are curious–but there are also bricks and mortar churches all around (if you decide you are okay with paying to heat and cool a building again).
February 11th, 2010 at 1:07 am
Chrissy – read the post. Amen to it. Would have commented, but couldn’t figure out how.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:29 am
Ok, I’m an Episcopalian agnostic or atheist. Shh, don’t tell anyone, I want to keep going to my church because I love the music & so many of the people are great. BUT I have huge issues with the creed because, basically, I think it’s a bunch of hooey. And don’t get me started on the Eucharist…I really shouldn’t be receiving. Not sure if you belonged to a credal church but, if you did, I’d love to read what your creed would be. Maybe after you tackle the beatitudes….
February 11th, 2010 at 1:37 am
Priss, glad your journey of self-discovery finds you on the path that’s right for you! May you NEVER find a downside.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:54 am
Good post! I enjoyed it.
I admire you for breaking through. I keep trying. Just when I am making headway, something trips me up. Right now it is a friend from childhood who begs me to stop posting about negative things Christians do. He thinks if I post about Christians at all, I should be showing the positive side, too. He really believes the negative side is really not all that dangerous and corrupt. I really believe he is too sheltered.
I’ve told him I’d curb it but really, I don’t know if I can’t stick to that. The things I read are sooo maddening.
Anyway, I like your blog a lot. Good luck with it and don’t stop. You’re an inspiration.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:56 am
I guess I could be among the “don’t give a rat’s ass” crew since I couldn’t read most of your blog because I was too busy admiring those adorable boys with their great sense of humor.
February 11th, 2010 at 2:06 am
Being a lover of great mysteries or dramas or comedies, stories in general, I’m just curious what happened to make you so mad? Its the missing piece!
February 11th, 2010 at 2:12 am
Little Appoe-have you even read the post Rechelle has written? If you had it would be clear ‘what happened’. She woke up!
February 11th, 2010 at 2:17 am
Don’cha just love small towns? Really! Everyone knows your business practically before you do! If there weren’t a myriad of other advantages it’d be enough to drive me back to the big city.
Love those boys of yours. Such cuties having fun with fruit. Don’t they love it when you tell them they can play with their food? : )
February 11th, 2010 at 2:17 am
Love it! Since my deconversion I’ve really been looking for resources for non-religious parents–how to deal with religious family members, how to raise kids to think critically, etc. I thought you might be interested in a great resource for secular parents that I recently found. It’s the website and books of Dale McGowan. I’m currently reading Parenting Beyond Belief, and he has another book called Raising Freethinkers which has lots of links to secular topics for parents. And I can spend hours reading through his blog at http://www.parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/. Really, really good stuff, if you haven’t heard of him yet.
February 11th, 2010 at 2:24 am
that was a good, funny post (also, now I am having cravings for citrus fruit).
I only found your blog recently, but it’s a very funny one. And kudos to you for being honest to yourself and your family about what you believe (or not, in this case) :-)
——
and a little note to the Christians who have been saying Rechelle/atheists in general shouldn’t be angry at God for problems with religion, but at their community:
atheists don’t believe there is a god. and you can’t be angry at something you don’t believe. or have any of you ever been angry at the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy? that doesn’t make any sense. so yeah, when you don’t believe there is a god, all there is to a religion is the people in it and the beliefs you get with joining a religion. so no, atheists aren’t “angry at god” or “disappointed with god”.
February 11th, 2010 at 2:27 am
Rechelle – I would never judge anyone for personal choices made and will not judge you either….there was a time during and after college in which I also threw my faith out the window. I was SO smart. I had minored in philosophy. Sartre told me that I was accountable to only the choices I made in this life – not to some devine providence.
Fast forward 15 years…I found I started to yearn for the spirituality that those around me had and coveted. I was envious of those around me that could blindly follow. I started to see visibly a sense of almost inner peace they had – that I didn’t. I rejoined a different faith chuch (moved from Catholic to Lutheran) and joined a bible study just to see if I could somehow make sense of it all…and have found a sense of inner peace again – that I had lacked for so long.
I am not saying that I am a card carrying Jesus loving – sing by the campfire kumbya and all that…I had to find a level of spirituality that I was confortable with – one that threw most of the bible out the window and focused on what I know deep down is right. Loving others as you love yourself, caring for the sick, poor.
I would never ever tell anyone what to believe – or what type of faith they should have – in 21st century America I think there is enough room for us each to interpret the world as we see it. I just thought you would like to someone at the end of the path you are now just treading down – and how it came out for me.
February 11th, 2010 at 2:29 am
Wow. I love your boys fruit-eyes so much more so than another blogger’s kids creepy, sparkly photoshopped- to- the -max eyeballs!
February 11th, 2010 at 2:37 am
Rechelle- I had the comments turned off! thanks for informing me.
February 11th, 2010 at 2:51 am
I live in a large liberal city and it’s still tough to go around announcing that you are an atheist or agnostic or pagan or whatever — anything that isn’t “mainstream.” And we’re pretty odd here in Portland to start with. Discussing religion if it’s not Christian or Jewish is a lot like having a secret handshake or something. Something tips you off that the people you’re with might be like minded, and THEN you can talk about it. But before that, you risk being burned at the stake.
February 11th, 2010 at 3:32 am
Religion: adaptation or by-product? is a short review of a similarly-titled paper (linked from the review) which may be of interest here. A quote from the review:
Disclaimer: I haven’t yet read the entire paper, nor the comments on the review.
February 11th, 2010 at 3:35 am
This is hilarious! Ahhh, small towns. Ahhhh, conservative small towns.
February 11th, 2010 at 4:07 am
Rechelle, I like the new you, and I liked the old you. You’re just plain funny, and I love your dark humor and sarcasm.
To Allison, I also moved away from Southern Baptist to Lutheran, and it’s one of the best things I’ve EVER done.
February 11th, 2010 at 4:09 am
Glad you seem to be having so much fun. Unfortunately, your critique of the bible and of the Christian faith are based on such a pile of logical fallacies and a failure to engage the bible in it’s context that answering them all would almost be futile.
You also fail to take into consideration the positive contributions to our civilization that have their source in the bible and the church. (Think things like hospitals, higher education, medicine, the abolition of slavery, the emancipation of women, human rights, social welfare programs and the like – all the direct outgrowth things taught in the dreaded ‘magic book.’ Your criticisms show a lack of any historical familiarity of the effect of the bible and the church on our culture. Perhaps most of all you are guilty of blaming the bible for the failures of individuals. After all its not like Christians have any corner on the market of being rude and judgemental. Pleny of atheists and agnostics are a**holes too.
Step back a minute and ask yourself, do you really posses more wisdom than the people who laid the ground work for the civilization we now have? Really? It may not be perfect but but it’s a damn sight better than the ones built on other foundations.(ie Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism.)
February 11th, 2010 at 4:32 am
Patrick wrote: You also fail to take into consideration the positive contributions to our civilization that have their source in the bible and the church.
You fail to take into consideration that both the bible and the church are human creations/institutions which are carrying on quite successfully on just the belief in a god, not to be confused with the actual existence of same.
February 11th, 2010 at 4:36 am
Go easy Patrick before you cite education etc. Given your first name you may be familiar with this;
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/world/europe/21ireland.html
or in the case of emancipation of women – the Magdalene Laundries ?
I grew up in a country controlled then by the Catholic Church and as a female I snort at the so-called “positive contributions”.
Don’t .even.get.me.started. I have managed to find a peace and I would like to stay there.
February 11th, 2010 at 4:51 am
Patrick, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that society as we know it began with the Bible. You do know that many of the examples you give of a progressive, just and civilized society were in fact introduced much earlier than the Bible was written, or Jesus supposedly lived? Medicine and medical care in particular, for example, has been around since beings could only grunt and point. The Ancient Greeks were particularly known for their medical discoveries and implementations, some of which was continuously taught and practiced for thousands of years after. Ancient libraries, such as the famed Library of Alexandria (founded third century BC), and teachers such as Socrates and Plato, were where our modern universities stem from. As for human rights, social welfare, etc., what about the Code of Hammurabi (ca. 1790 BC)? What about any number of common laws that were implemented across the Godless, Bibleless land that somehow got along just fine for thousands of years?
To sum up: Just because some things may (after much modern interpretation) be mentioned in the Bible does not mean that they ORIGINATED there. Common sense, and a few rudimentary classes in ancient history, will cure you of your inability to look beyond one particular text. Even Wikipedia is helpful for research before making blanket claims.
February 11th, 2010 at 5:16 am
Hey Rechelle,
How’s the basement going, any progress?
Life at the garden center? Country Dr. ? Show cats? The urns on out front?
Hmm small town and funny looks. Do you think its similar to the new car syndrome?
–you get a new car and then notice them everywhere, maybe the neighbors aren’t really looking at you maybe they just have really bad bug eyes.
Thinking of you at tea time.
February 11th, 2010 at 5:39 am
Patrick, the “hospitals, higher education, medicine, the abolition of slavery, the emancipation of women, human rights, social welfare programs and the like” have nothing to do with Christianity of the bible. as a matter of fact, the bible has more often been used to propagate the status quo (e.g. slavery) than to fight it. even today, it’s the Christians who are trying to roll back women’s rights and are denying equality to homosexuals, while secular nations have already passed this stage a long time ago. As for things like hospitals… secular European countries with state run, non-religious hospitals have the most healthy, happy people in the world. evidently, the bible isn’t necessary to build them (and also, charity hospitals also don’t need to be christian. Doctors Without Borders for example, a completely secular organization, had a whole bunch of hospitals in Haiti before the earthquake)
February 11th, 2010 at 5:58 am
I wonder if Patrick ever studied history, even at school level. The ‘church’ did all it could to hold people back. It tried to prevent mass education. As a result the world lived in the dark ages for centuries. The ‘church’ has been the source of far more evil and pain and suffering than anything positive. It is till is a force for ill in much of the western world.
February 11th, 2010 at 6:06 am
This first time atheist blog reader finds you hilarious. Got here from a tweet link of your PW post.
February 11th, 2010 at 6:10 am
Such handsome boys–they always make me smile. Great post–I enjoy your insight. Particularly regarding those that stick their noses where it doesn’t belong!
February 11th, 2010 at 6:34 am
Thanks for your honesty and wisdom.
February 11th, 2010 at 6:53 am
Huh. I tried to make an interesting comment a few times – I’m an observant Jew! hooray for diversity in the comments section! – yet it won’t show up. I’m sure there’s a fairly depressing analogy in here about Jewish-Christian relations.
February 11th, 2010 at 7:02 am
Wow. I just found your blog…somehow, and I love it. I was raised in a fundamentalist church and now I’m agnostic at best. I got so tired of the guilt and fear of eternal damnation that was hammered into me every Sunday and Wednesday.
The hypocrisy just got to be too much. They could point out verses left and right that talked about judgment and damnation and why you weren’t worthy of God’s love. But they blatantly ignored so many of the teachings of Jesus, most notably regarding our responsibility to care for the poor and share our wealth with those less fortunate. I could go on, but I won’t as I’m sure you’ve had all of those same experiences and revelations.
I really appreciate your honesty.
February 11th, 2010 at 7:04 am
I adore your blog, and your insight, intelligence, humor, and humanity. My sole complaint is that for someone who is so clearly introspective and thoughtful, you seem to hold narrow (and occasionally rigid) assumptions about how the world works. For example, you consistently equate religion with Christianity. As an observant Jew, I find this equation to be confusing, at best. I understand that there may be very few Jews in your immediate town, but – surely it’s occurred to you that the world’s religious traditions include more than the descendants of the free reform churches?
As one example, Judaism has no issue with atheism – Judaism is about “deeds, not creed,” “Israel” literally means “he who struggles with Gd,” and our religious tradition and books are clear that what you believe about Gd (as opposed to what you do in your daily life) doesn’t matter – and yet I have to admit, it’s difficult for me to see you struggling with a certain type of Christianity, and then leaping from that struggle to the conclusion that “religion sucks.” If you’re going to reject religion, then – as supportive as I am of that stance – I wish you’d do so after a consideration of various different religions (alternatively, if it’s the concept of Gd that troubles you, then that’s quite distinct from religion per se). Is it religion that bothers you, or merely the Christianity in which you’ve participated? If that’s what it is, then say that – as an observant Jew who cringes at the way in which my beloved tradition (and the Torah/Tanakh) is routinely misunderstood and misrepresented by evangelicals, I’d certainly understand that.
Regardless, you are a light unto the internet (Jewish in-joke there).
February 11th, 2010 at 7:16 am
So, did you ever select that carpet for the basement?
February 11th, 2010 at 7:35 am
Stone age, indeed. Agree with Martha in KS. As long as you’ve found your voice, to hell with your husband and kids. You go girl. From now on, its all about You!!!
February 11th, 2010 at 8:26 am
Patrick: You gave me the best laugh of the week, thanks mate, I think you definately fit into the zealot category.
Rechelle: Only really just came across your blog, love the new you, can’t imagine what it’d be like having to put up with the crap that you are putting up with in the community… we don’t get that sort of stuff here in AU, even in small towns (well not like that, anyway).
February 11th, 2010 at 9:06 am
Patrick: You haven’t done enough independent thinking or reading of your bible.
Rechelle: Sorry for the pain from small minds. Just from reading your stuff – I’ll bet you are big enough to get around it. Good luck; chin up! Laughter is the best medicine and it usually confuses the “enemy”.
February 11th, 2010 at 2:12 am
Ain’t small towns great? I am not sure that anyone in my small Kansas town actually realize that we are atheists. Our interests (like science and books) caused everyone to write us off as weirdos long before the lack of god belief could be noticed. Stay strong!
February 11th, 2010 at 2:53 am
PATRICK WROTE: It may not be perfect but but it’s a damn sight better than the ones built on other foundations.(ie Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism.)
And that’s the sticking point, for me, of all religions: They all think they’re right / best / more informed / light years ahead of the other religions.
*snort*
I’ll pass. Me and my higher power do just fine by ourselves, thanks.
February 11th, 2010 at 3:47 am
Love the backhand compliment: not smart enough to be an atheist! That warms my unbelieving heart. Or brain, whichever.
February 11th, 2010 at 3:54 am
Patrick wrote: “Pleny of atheists and agnostics are a**holes too.”
You mean, just like you are?
February 11th, 2010 at 4:00 am
I’ve lived in Seattle where everyone did their own thing, and now live in a town of 800 in Kansas. And like Cooter, I doubt anyone who knows our family knows exactly what our beliefs are (hubby and I have different beliefs, but don’t attend services, join groups, etc.) Our 3 kids are smart, kind people who haven’t brought up the subject of belief systems, higher powers, etc. I look forward to them discovering that for themselves as they get older and learn more about the world, and will answer any questions they may have (we’re up to 6th grade, no questions yet.) They go to Methodist services with the grandparents when they have a sleepover there. Hubby and I bow our heads respectfully when grace is said at supper with the neighbors or extended family who do so. It hasn’t been a big deal in our life. I guess the most important beliefs that bind our family and friends are love and respect. And at a neighborhood Christmas party, when some of the neighbors commented on what great kids we have, and how it must be “because they are part of a good family” – that confirms for me that we’re doin’ alright in the eyes of the world, whatever our beliefs may be. If we were to casually tell them our beliefs (or at least mine,) they may be surprised, but I’m sure it wouldn’t be scandalous. Then again we haven’t been involved in church as Rechelle has. I’m sure with Rechelle’s Christian upbringing and recent church involvement, it is harder for people to believe this is for real. But the people in her life who love and know her best will understand (she hasn’t become a child-abusing, slave-owning murderer, after all) and it will probably become a non-issue down the road – love and respect will overcome.
February 11th, 2010 at 4:14 am
There have been many comments about how cute and precious those boys are. I am a Christian, but it takes much more faith than I have to believe that those boys could have evolved from anything other than humans. Which just means that they did not evolve at all, but were created.
February 11th, 2010 at 5:18 am
Papa Harry,
It doesn’t take faith to believe in evolution. All it takes to accept the theory of evolution as the best explanation for the diversity of life on earth is the willingness to read and understand the science behind it. Fortunately, there are plenty of excellent books on the subject written for the non-scientist. My favorite recent read is “The Making of the Fittest” by Sean Carroll. What I like about it is that it explores some of the latest findings based on DNA analysis (who needs fossils?). Fascinating stuff, much more satisfying than some cosmic magic trick.
February 11th, 2010 at 5:33 am
Papa Harry wrote: …it takes much more faith than I have to believe that those boys could have evolved from anything other than humans. Which just means that they did not evolve at all, but were created.
And were brought by a stork? No, I suggest to you that they came into being in the usual way, developing from the fusion of a living sperm and a living egg.
By the way, individuals do not evolve (Lamarck, Lysenko, et al, notwithstanding). Populations do. Check out Ring Species. You may find it interesting.
February 11th, 2010 at 6:12 am
Maria, Jadehawk,
Reread my comments. I never claimed that Christians invented medicine: they were instrumental in creating hospitals as we understand them.(So secular states have good hospitals- this refutes my point how?) I also never claimed our civilization was ‘invented’ by the bible, just that it had been shaped and molded in certain respects by it.
Colin, I have a bachelors in History from a well respected state university in the western US. Graduated on the Dean’s List. How closely have you studied History?
Lisa S. Have read it straight through cover to cover twice, many parts dozens of times, and some parts over one hundred times. Have a couple degrees from state or secular universities. Also studied the bible and theolgy at a graduate level. Plenty of independent thinking and tons of bible reading.
Sparkly Jules, so you and your higher power must be more right and enlightened than them all – *snort*
Jane, one good turn deserves another…. I’m just sayin…
February 11th, 2010 at 7:39 am
Patrick, what does it mean to say that “christians were instrumental in creating hospitals as we understand it”? was it their christianity that mattered? or was it just that, by being Europeans, they they were almost automatically christians?
The truth is that what gave us medicine and hospitals as we know them today is science, not christianity. yes, they were christian scientists, but it wasn’t the christian part that was essential, it was the scientist part. And the fact that all this didn’t really get going until after the Renaissance and Enlightenment movements threw off the shackles of religious oppression is pretty much proof of it (and what good came out of “medieval medicine” was Arabic anyway, so obviously nothing to do with Christianity either)
February 11th, 2010 at 9:14 am
Observant Jews are no different. They still think it is alright to abuse boy children for God. I for one have learned a great deal about many religions, yours included, Mama Needs Coffee. Yours is no more enlightened than the others. And the ‘rules’ observant Jews follow are ridiculous and to say your deed is more important than creed? Then why the food rules, the chopping off the tip of boy’s peni, the hidden hair(under wigs!!!)….clearly deed being more important than creed in your ‘observance’ is just another lie along with the idea that Jews are somehow closer to God than anyone else. Now THAT is creed.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:44 am
Colin, at first your posts were interesting but now you’ve joined the strident, mean-natured, judgmental voices of the many people posting that just cannot respectfully accept another person’s position that differs from theirs. At least when you can be safely anonymous.
Why are you ripping into Mama Needs Coffee? Her post beautifully expressed her views without being vehement or ugly. With all the enlightenment you claim, why do you find it necessary to denigrade the core values of another person?
Why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and start ACTING like a superior being. Then wouldn’t you just look upon the rest of us idiots with patience and long-suffering, pat us on the head and silently feel sorry for our continuing trek through the darkness? Or something OTHER than act like a jackass?
One man’s truth is another man’s idiocy. You are no better than anyone else, and while you continually imply others need to think their way out of the fog of faith, your knee-jerk reactions get uglier and ugliers.
I’ve posted on this thread before, but frankly this is the first time I’ve been not been measured and fairminded – you, Colin, are a jerk!
February 11th, 2010 at 10:46 am
Let me reiterate AND correct my typo: uglier and uglieR!
February 11th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Colin, it may surprise you to know that I absolutely agree with you about circumcision. We did not circumcise our sons, although they may certainly choose to do so once they reach adulthood. I also don’t cover my hair. I do adhere to kashrut, and in fact, I believe in the sages and rabbis who have interpreted kashrut as mandating that Jews be vegetarians.
But those particular rules aren’t at the core of what you’re saying, I don’t think. What you’re questioning is what we call halakah. This is a topic that can’t adequately be discussed in the comments section of someone else’s blog. Suffice it to say that everything you mentioned are mitzvot – deeds. Jews have no mandatory statement of faith. You can be an observant Jew and not believe in Gd, or not much like Gd, or believe that Gd is a communist wearing a Grateful Dead bandana. And the idea of a “chosen people” does not mean that we’re closer to Gd at all, as any Jew will tell you.
It doesn’t sound to me as though you “learned a great deal” about Judaism at all, because the objections you raise are pretty standard stereotypes. That said, I’m not trying to convince you of anything – a lot of evil has been done in the name of religion, and Judaism is certainly no exception. There are Jews who, by their expression of Judaism, turn our religion into a chillul Hashem. But that’s true of any group, of course. As for me, I do believe that Judaism mandates that I treat ALL others with respect and kindness. It matters to me not at all whether other people believe in Gd (or whether they, like me, simultaneously believe in ein sof and evolution). It does matter to me whether they treat their fellow human beings with decency.
Be well.
February 11th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
my beliefs are very different from yours and you know what? i don’t care. my beliefs get me through my life wonderfully and i hope yours work well for you. we all are not required to think and live the same. have a wonderful day!
February 11th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Write what you want – it is your blog! Plus from a stay-at-home-mom (former business world chick) I enjoy the different “opinions” I find on these blogs – makes life a bit more interesting! (and if you are correct, I agree with you regarding PW) FYI, I believe in God but struggle with the Catholic faith. To each his own.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Jill-I unlike you, I am not anonymous. Like you, I am entitled to my opinion. Unlike you, I prefer to not to indulge in ad hominem attacks upon people. You will never see me do that. Ideas on the other I can and I do.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Mama-treating others with decency I agree with. I cannot agree, possibly thru ignorance, that following certain rules, whether or not you follow them all, is anything but creed. I know it results in deeds but it is still rooted in creed. None of them make one a better person. Being a vegetarian doesn’t either. However, your attitude to and the way your say you treat others does make you a better person. I am glad you did not allow your sons to be mutilated. I may be forgiven I think for not realising that ‘observant Jew’ means different things to different ‘observant Jews.’
February 11th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Jill-it occurred to me you may not understand what I wrote in response to you. I was saying that I do not indulge in the kind of mean spirited nasty attacks upon people that you have chosen to do upon me whilst at the same time trying to claim the moral high ground. I think there is a word for that, it’s right on the tip of my tongue….
February 11th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
Rechelle, I’m so sorry, and I promise this is the last time I will take up your blog space!
Colin, you raise an important point. To the Jews, what we call the “oral Torah” (the Talmud) is just as important as the written Torah. This is what so few non-Jews understand. In studying the Talmud, you’re supposed to prepare yourself to enter a discussion that has spanned thousands of years, a discussion in which disagreement is not only tolerated, but cherished. Have you ever heard the statement, “Whenever you get two Jews together, you end up with three opinions”? It stems from our tradition of debating (endlessly!) with one another about the requirements of halakah, and how to apply halakah to new situations and challenges. As just one example, I was recently privy to an extended discussion about the hair of married women – what makes it ervah? In fact, there’s no scriptural basis for this – so, does this minhag rise to the level of halakah? Is a sheitel actually tzniut at all (which you mentioned)? etc. (By the way, the only women who shave their heads are members of the Satmar sect, and all I’ll say about that is that shaving their heads is the least of their issues).
This is why I cringe at the label “Judeo-Christian.” Judaism and Christianity are very different religions. Our conceptions of Gd, prayer, sexuality, the notion of an afterlife, what Christians call “sin” – it’s all very different.
At any rate, in my experience, a person’s religious identification has very little to do with their actual behavior towards other people. I’m not interested in people who profess a great love for Hashem; I’m interested in observing for myself how they speak of and treat other human beings. Lots of people claim to love humanity, and yet somehow always seem to hate actual people.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
Mama wrote:
Lots of people claim to love humanity, and yet somehow always seem to hate actual people.
You see that too? ;-)
The women I was referring to were part of documentary about Jews in Britain. The woman all had their own hair but wore wigs because women were not supposed to show their hair. I didn’t find it amusing but ridiculous. As I do the odd things that people or other religions do. In my work, years ago, I came across a woman who was extremely unhappy and she wanted me to help her be happy, not by helping her change, but by getting her daughter to do as she wished. In this case it was to leave her non white non Jewish husband AND her non white children and be accepted back into her community! Oh and yes I do know this sort of thing is not confined to Judaism. I come from mixed (nationality and religion) parentage myself and I know first hand the pain and suffering caused by belief systems of this sort. I also understand that when one is steeped in a belief system form birth, it is very difficult and painful and therefore unlikely, to shake it off altogether. I think this is especially so for Jews given their history. I would imagine far far more difficult to ditch that belief system without feeling like a traitor on top of everything else involved.
.
February 11th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Bravo! I love it when people have the courage to think big and think for themselves. Sometimes the awakening comes with middle age? In any event, I appreciate your candor. Can’t wait to read more of your writing here. Your blog is mentioned in “Life in Red Shoes” — and I am so glad I stopped by.
February 11th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
Hi, I found your blog through another blog called “Unreasonable Faith,” so I guess that would make me one of your new atheist readers. Thanks for making me welcome! I really enjoy your blog; spent a good 1.5 hours yesterday reading it when I should have been working!
I hope you will continue to find the unbelieving community accepting and open. Just to stay up to date on all of our news, I recommend two blogs: friendlyatheist.com and http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/ I will definitely alert these guys to your blog.
PS I can’t believe you have that much citrus in your house. Kudos!
February 11th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
Can I just say I’m enjoying reading the comments as much as the postings. I feel like I’m at a Lit n’ Deb forum:)
February 11th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
dear Ron and Ted I really do not believe that there is any solid proof that one species has ever evolved into another. I do think that some natural selection has occured during 6000 years , but no proof of species change.Man would have to have cone from man and that just raises the question where did the first man come from?
February 11th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
has occured during 6000 years
Ruh roh.
February 11th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
Papa Harry wrote: dear Ron and Ted I really do not believe that there is any solid proof that one species has ever evolved into another. …
Why are you propping up and then knocking down that straw man? One species does not “evolve into” another. Please scroll back to my February 11th, 2010 at 5:33 am comment and click on the Ring Species link in the last line. The page style here does not make links particularly conspicuous, but I did make it italic, and I did test it once the comment was posted to make sure it still worked (and it still does now).
Sadly, many people who say they “don’t believe in” evolution (as if it were an article of faith!) are basing this on misinformation they have been fed. For example: “An animal of species A randomly gives birth to an animal of a new species B. Now where is that animal ever going to find a mate? Nonsense!” Nonsense indeed, yet one does find such “proof” being offered.
The ring species article I linked to (it’s on Wikipedia) gives some specific examples, which anybody with the time and the motivation (and camping gear!) can go out and check for themselves. Matt 11.15
February 11th, 2010 at 5:43 pm
Colin, don’t worry about explaining yourself – I understood you completely. Have you thought of the word yet?
Or are you still wondering if Patrick has “ever studied history, even in school.” Oh, wait, you “don’t indulge yourself in mean-spirited remarks….” That must have been someone else. My bad.
February 11th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
JadeHawk,
You said “yes, they were christian scientists, but it wasn’t the christian part that was essential,”
It was the “christian part” that motivated these doctors and scientists to figure out better ways to treat the poor and the sick. It was the “christian part” that motivated the early Christians to feed the hungry and adopt the orphans, it was the “christian part’ that motivated ex slave traders to work tirelessly for the abolition of slavery. It was the ‘christian part’ that caused Martin Luther King and Mother Theresa to speak out for the poor and the oppressed and take action. Same with the early social reformers in the US and England. (Yes, I know there were ‘christians’ on the other side of those issues, but history has shown who was really acting out the teachings of Jesus and who was not. Anyone can claim the name, but Jesus said it is by their fruits you shall know them.)
Have there been horrible abuses of the Christian faith? Most certainly, and horrifying ones too. ( As the article linked by a commenter above concerning abuses in Irish schools shows) This however does not justify blanket dismissals of Christianity and a willful refusal to look at the positive contributions made.
Atheism has been far worse in the area ‘contribution’ to civilization. Sure there have been great scientists and doctors, great humanitarians etc. There has also been Lenin and Stalin, Hitler and Mao, and Pol Pot who together are responsible for more deaths in the past century alone than all the religious wars and pogroms in recorded history. The suffering they have caused is literally incomprehensible. These men were convinced atheists whose atheism was an integral part of their philosophy and politics and resulted in huge massacres as they attempted to rid their countries of any vestige of religion. ( Many claim Hitler was a Christian- he was not. He had the same plans for the church as he did the Jews, but was forced to proceed against it more carefully because it was more entrenched in German society. Still, 2 million Christians died in concentration camps.)
Jill, Colin can say what he wants but his rants would be classified as anti -semitic and bigoted on most any other forum.
February 11th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
Papa Harry,
Your reference to “6000 years” implies you are a new earth creationist. If so, it may be a waste of time to have this discussion. The reality is that there is a mountain of scientific evidence to support the fact that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, and that all life today shares a common ancestor. The information is all readily available; a few google searches would point you in the right direction (if you really care).
What I don’t get about creationists (and global warming deniers, for that matter), is what they think of the scientific community. Both of these subjects are overwhelmingly accepted by the scientists working in the relevant fields. Do you think that all of those scientists are stupid, and that you know the subject better than them? Or are the thousands of scientists worldwide a part of some massive conspiracy to mislead the masses? Both possibilities seem absurd to me — what am I missing?
February 11th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
Patrick,
Do you have a reference for the claim that Hitler had plans to eradicate churches? Hitler invoked god in speeches and I don’t know of any hard evidence for him being an atheist. Even if he was, the vast majority of those who carried out his plans were Christians. I’m sure you’ve heard that Nazi soldiers wore belt buckles with the words “Gott Mit Uns” (God With Us). Also, the anti-semitic writings of Martin Luther helped fuel the resentment of Jews among German Christians.
February 11th, 2010 at 7:17 pm
The earth’s climate has ALWAYS CHANGED. It is absurd tome that anyone thinks we can alter that. That doe snot mean I don’t think we need to conserve, reserve, clean up etc etc but to suggest those of us who refuse to accept the King Kanute position are daft is well….daft!
Back in the 70’s it was begin suggested, at the very least, that we stop cutting down the trees. We took no notice. So whilst I think we need to stop polluting and all that, I don’t think we can stop climate change just because it is now highly inconvenient for us for it to change and bugger up our arrogant plans.
February 11th, 2010 at 7:18 pm
I’m still trying to figure out “the emancipation of women” portion of Patrick’s argument.
Can you expound Patrick?
February 11th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
Colin,
I hesitated to mention climate change, as I was concerned it would derail the discussion. However, your comment exhibits the sort of thing I was talking about. Of course scientists know that the climate has always changed. What is different now is how fast it is changing, and the fact that scientific analysis shows that human activities are having a forcing effect on the climate.
If the climate changes we are experiencing were all caused by a natural earth cycle (or by the sun), then you are right that we would likely be powerless to change it. However, our production of greenhouse gases is causing a large portion of the problem, and it is something that can be corrected (in theory; political will is an issue).
February 11th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
dear Ted and Ron I am very sorry that I confused you when I asked the question about where man came from. I know the answer. I just put the question out there to get people to think about it. My source of information is the book of Genesis in the Bible. Genesis was written by a man named Moses about 3400 years ago. Moses was inspired to write Genesis by the God that created this universe we live in.With that kind of inspiration, I am thinking that the information is accurate.Because I feel that my source is so accurate, I have no need to explore other writings that are only a few years old and constantly being updated.Hope this clears up any confusion caused by my previous comment.
February 11th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
Oh! Ron in answer to your question whast am I missing?I believe that far to many people including scientists are far too willing to limit the power of God
February 11th, 2010 at 9:27 pm
Papa Harry, your information about your “source” is not very good. Moses didn’t write the Pentateuch (including Genesis); this is a pretty well-known historical fact. Current biblical scholarship actually shows that it was written by a multitude of authors: most of it is a splicing of 3 different sources, called the J, E, and P sources (stands for Jahwist, Elohist (for the terms used for “god”) and Priestly text). It’s actually very easy to tell which are written by which group, if you know what to look for. For example, sometimes god doesn’t seem very all-knowing, like when Adam and Eve “hide” from him, or when the has to send Angels to Sodom to “find out” if there’s any righteous people left in that; those are the J and E texts. On the other hand, sometimes god is all-knowing and all-powerful, like in Genesis 1 when he creates the entire universe; that’s the Priestly texts (so are the verses about Noah sacrificing “clean” animals; that’s also anachronistic, because it isn’t until later, during Abraham, that god designates some animals as clean, and some as unclean)
February 11th, 2010 at 9:36 pm
Ron,
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id2.html
Also, Hitler was far more an outgrowth of Nietzsche’s views. He used the unfortunate quotes from Luther as propaganda to advance his agenda.
km,
Both Jesus treatment of women and the Apostle Paul’s writings were radical departures from the culture’s view of women at the time.
“”Despite the anti-Christian prejudice evident in much of the feminist movement, it is to the teachings and example of Jesus Christ that women owe most of their freedoms. The advent of Christianity raised the dignity, freedom and rights of women to levels never before known in any other culture or religion. Indeed, as one historian put it: ‘The birth of Jesus was the turning point in the history of women.’” – Dr. Peter Hammond
Also see http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-ethics/
Some pioneers of feminism were Christians.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:45 pm
Jadehawk Your courage astounds me So willing to limit the power of God I did have enough courage to pinpoint my source of information but you are rather vague about your source.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
my sources? very well, let’s start with the writings of: J.D. Crossan, Burton Mack, Raymond Brown, Ched Myers, R.M. Helms, Hector Avalos, Bart Ehrman, Marcus Borg, Robert Price, Thomas L. Thompson, Niels Peter Lemche, and a handful of other biblical scholars I can’t quite recall at the moment.
And I should note that this is solely for the biblical studies; all the other sciences you ignore/don’t know a lot about/deny when you say that you don’t accept evolution and think the earth is 6000 years old would require a significantly longer list.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
To those of you addressing the Torah (”Hebrew Bible”), I just want to note again that the Torah given to Moses at Sinai consists of a WRITTEN and an ORAL Torah. The oral Torah consists of the legal tradition, transmitted orally at Sinai from Gd to Moses, then passed down until it was eventually codified in the (Babylonian) Talmud. Therefore, Jewish law isn’t based on a strictly literal reading of the Torah, but rather on combined oral and written traditions. For example, take the Torah phrase, “An eye for an eye &c.” The Talmud clarifies that because personal retribution is explicitly prohibited, this phrase can’t be interpreted literally; according to the Talmud, this concept applies to monetary compensation in what were essentially ancient tort cases.
Again, unless you have at least a passing familiarity with Hebrew and with the Talmud, you simply can’t take (often poorly) translated scripture verses out of context, and then derive sweeping conclusions from them.
This holds, regardless of whether you believe that Moses actually received the Torah at Sinai, or whether you instead see the event as a narrative designed to symbolically express the Jews’ first encounters with a unitary Divine presence.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:37 pm
Papa Harry,
In addition to the authors Jadehawk mentions, you might want to check out “Who Wrote the Bible” by Richard Friedman.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
Is the oral Torah a literal belief or allegory or something? Do you believe that God actually spoke to a man named Moses? Or that the Torah, both parts, were given by God to a man?
February 11th, 2010 at 11:01 pm
No, no – the Talmud is halaka, Jewish law. You can go and buy a set (for a few thousand dollars :) ) in any Judaica store. The point is that for Jews, the written Torah doesn’t stand alone. In other words, you cannot read the Torah without the Talmud. You can’t read the Biblical account of, say, the akedah (”the binding of Isaac” – the story of Abraham and Isaac) in Genesis and understand it without also reading the Talmudic interpretations. Does that make sense?
I would also add that you can’t understand it unless you also know some rudimentary Hebrew, since I’ve seen translations that completely distort the original text (i.e. inserting words that aren’t there, mistranslating others, etc.).
Some Jews, primarily the haredim, do believe that Gd literally gave the oral Torah to Moses at Sinai, along with the written. Other Jews see the Torah as the Jewish people’s literary response to a Divine presence in the world. In other words, they believe that Jews wrote the Torah – but that the Torah is not simply a collection of myths or stories, but is instead a response to the sacred, an attempt to convince people to view everyday life in a sacred way.
February 11th, 2010 at 11:46 pm
Papa Harry wrote: Because I feel that my source is so accurate, I have no need to explore other writings that are only a few years old and constantly being updated.
All right, I’m calling your bluff. Give me chapter and verse where God/Moses/Habbakuk/whomever explains about ring species.
Other readers—not Papa Harry, of course—may find this cartoon apropos.
February 12th, 2010 at 4:03 am
Ann – you have been spammed.
February 12th, 2010 at 8:14 am
Thank you Mama Needs Coffee (I just had mine!) So like with other religions there are fundies and not. Thanks. I knew that, I was just wanting it to be clearer.
It seems to me that the holy scriptures of all religions were written by brain boxes for brain boxes which seems a little thoughtless.
Thanks for answering me and not casting stones as others see fit to do. I enjoy these conversations but can do without the nastiness.
February 12th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
I’ve enjoyed our conversation too!
February 12th, 2010 at 12:34 pm
Colin, you’ve said:
To M and Heidi: I am English and the first word that entered my head having read your input was ‘bollocks’ so as I prefer to be honest, I’ll stick with that. I doubt either of you understand that nor the instructions on a box of cornflakes without being told what it means.
To Nicki: Only hubris could account for such a belief. You really are very limited if you think that. Only a person who is deficient in brain ability needs to told that what hurts us would hurt others.
Most people would interpret those statements as insults, though you may like to think they are your opinions. Your last post implies you may not be aware of how you come across.
February 12th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Dear Jill-you may have had a chance of having me think well of you, and therefore think you may have something to say that i need to note before your jerk post.
February 12th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
Patrick- sometimes I think it’s feminist in spite of christianity.. Most of our Christian religions relegate females to second class citizenshiip and harshly ascribed roles, as servants, as derferring to our husbands, as fodder for sharing. Apostles, priests, father, son etc. it’s all male.
Celtic women had a lot of power before Christianity, before they got relegated to keeping the church clean and fixing the altar flowers.
Ironically one of my feminist heros was a Catholic nun, who referred to God as She, challenged all the anti-women nonsense in the bible etc.. She is the only reason I have any semblance of faith whatsoever.
February 12th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Colin, you are so right. I should not have called you a jerk and I apologize.
If I had couched it your terms, as when you addressed Patrick, I would have said, “I WONDER if Colin is a jerk.” Perhaps that would allow me to convince myself that I was not making a personal insult, as that seems to be your style. Your intention is just as barbed, even when wrapped in flowery language.
However, I would still be just as disappointed in myself if I had phrased my opinions in a “softer” way.
SO, I regret being so pointed with you, and apologize. I felt your response to MamaNeedsCoffee’s original post was unnecessarily harsh, and I spoke in her defense. However, since she seemed to handle it with grace, my response was unnecessary, unappreciated, and really went against my own higher nature.
If you are not aware, please know that your barbs are personal, no matter how you phrase them. People know when they are being insulted. For my part, I regret addng to the fracas that sometimes erupts in these posts. Be well.
February 12th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
Point!: it is perfectly legitimate to ask if someone has any education in a subject when they give such an inaccurate picture of it.
Point 2: No where in my fist response to Mama did I name call or attacker her personally.
YOU for some reason have chosen to single me out and read into my words what you choose to read into them. I clearly push your buttons and instead of looking at why, you choose to personally attack me and make accusations.
Much of what has been written here has been highly offensive and insulting yet you choose to pull me up on what might be, MIGHT, minor infractions of YOUR code!
I will make it clear again: I think the indoctrination of children in any faith and the lopping off of boys foreskins for a mere fanciful idea is abuse of the most serious kind. and yet it is reverred!
Be angry about that, Jill, not insults you can tweak out my writing.
February 12th, 2010 at 7:02 pm
I’m not angry about anything or at anyone, Colin.
My apology is sincere. Best wishes.
February 15th, 2010 at 5:29 pm
Hi, Rachelle!
I “met” you via Daniel Florien a few weeks ago and am soooo wanting to chat with you. I think we have a lot in common. I’m going through a very similar journey. I must warn you…I’m going to nag you repeatedly to write a book…your “voice” is such an enjoyably clever, kind and much-needed one. :) Please drop me a note when you get a minute.
cheryl
February 15th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
You are a hoot and I love reading your blog!
Thanks!
Lori
February 17th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
I thik you are doing very well! It’s natural, i think, to initially be concerned what others are thinking about you. I was that way for a good long while and hit my disbelief for a long time. Now I’m out, and I don’t care what anyone thinks about it. I proudly have the Atheist ‘A’ on the back window of my truck and no one’s even said a word to me about it (i’m guessing most don’t have a clue what it is, but if they were to ask, I would certainly tell). As far as I’m concerned at this point, if someone is going to be hateful about it, I don’t need them in my life. I’ve got pleanty of supportive people around me and it seems as if you do too. And if you don’t yet, I’m certain you will!
Rock on!
February 18th, 2010 at 11:51 am
ROTFL That was a great visual! :)
February 18th, 2010 at 6:17 pm
Posting on every thread. Who am I? I’ve kind of given up reading the posts, though. Too exhausting. Not sure why you’d read mine in that case, but who knows.
Rechelle, I’ve just recently met this God who does love unconditionally, kind of like how you mentioned in your 10 commandments post.
Did you ever think it’s the small-town churches you don’t agree with and not necessarily God? And I’m not saying this to create and argument, just a conversation.
I have a pastor who has introduced me to this loving God. If you ever at all interested (and you would not believe how OUT OF CHARACTER this is for me), he’s Adam Hamilton. He believes that they are a lot of gray areas, and very few things are black and white. His sermons are online and he’s a smart, smart guy. If you’re bored try http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2009/02/10/when-christians-get-it-right/.
February 18th, 2010 at 9:03 pm
Hi. I just started reading your blog today and I have enjoyed it very much. I saw you through a post on Opendiary in a diary called Atheist Under Ur Bed, which was your apology entry. Welcome to the light! I know what you mean about small town people. I grew up in a tiny town and was a very vocal atheist in high school, so I caught a lot of “do you worship satan? You’re going to go to hell! You have no morals. Why do you hate god?” type of stuff. It passes once people realize that you’re the same person you always were. And I think you might be surprised to find out how many people even in your small town think and feel the same way that you do. So if you’re worried about your boys(who are adorable, by the way) and how they might get treated if they pick up your atheism, they’ll be ok, especially with support from their mom.
I find your blog very funny and refreshing! Here’s looking forward to reading more!